genderwikiaorg-20200215-history
Talk:Transtrender/@comment-43796243-20190911224736/@comment-43796243-20191008195224
@KerryFin (sorry this ended up being way longer than intended!) Don't get me wrong; I don't doubt that some people are non-binary! I'm certainly not referring to nb people when I talk about trenders, rather those who select labels which have nothing to do with the derivatives of gender (eg. 'stargender', 'caminus gender', 'mutogenders', 'neurogenders'). Of course nb fits in fine with the concept of gender because it still relates to masculinity and feminity, at least to an extent - to how you feel within your body in terms of sex characteristics, the way people in society address/treat you when they area aware that you posess those characterisics... I do believe you can experience intense gender euphoria, and still experience this myself in relation to my chest, years after top surgery. But I do not believe that gender euphoria can exist in the complete ''absence of gender dysphoria. The trouble I have with when people claim that they're trans but don't experience ''any dysphoria, is then how do those individuals differ from simply being gender non conforming? To claim to be trans when you don't experience a notable pattern of discomfort in your body or with the pronouns others address you with, then really this is only perpetuating the issue of gender stereotypes and causing unnecessary division. I suppose one problem may be that both the concepts of masculinity and femininity have been becoming increasingly toxic and maybe people have become so fed up with the 'war of the sexes', so to speak, that they would rather not be associated at all. Sorry, went off at a bit of a tangent there. I do agree with the definition of dysphroia, and the way I see it thus far is that it does fit those experiences, simply because all things related to gender stem from sex... Here's my theory in an attempt to explain: Say you throw a bunch of babies onto another planet and by some miacle they survive and build a new society... Initially the main differences they would recognise between themselves would be their anatomy so label one group 'male/he', the other 'female/she'. Over time, they would recognise differences between males and females in things like physical strength, and differences in how they connect with others psychologically - thus sex roles and stereotypical expressions begin to form. So ignoring gender identity and intersex conditions for a moment, you have these three main elements of the two sexes. But oh no! Not every male and not every female fits perfectly into those three boxes! Thus we have the derivatives of gender stemming from sex: the spectrum of sex female phenotype/genotype---or XX/XY with mismatched phenotype---male phenotype/genotype; gender roles first associated with the two binary sexes; and the spectrum of gender expression based on sex stereotypes ''feminine---androgynous---masculine. ''Does that make sense? So arguably, when describing the discomfort we feel with our assigned sex, I don't think that need be limited to our bodies but rather our holistic experiences as being AFAB/AMAB in a societies which treat the two very differently. With a bigender, genderfluid or agender person, they may experience intermittent dysphoria for example in relation to the pronouns people use for them, and since people will generally look to clues of a persons sex when subconsciously 'deciding' which pronoun fits, it could be argued that the individual does indeed experience dysphoria which is triggered secondarily by their assigned sex. Bit of a stretch? Maybe. That's just my opinion on it at this point in time. I do like your second example of how a genderfluid, agender or bigender person may never feel dysphoria... but it does raise one question for me; if these people grow up surrounded by acceptance of their non-conformity without being forced into boxes and these individuals are convinced they're comfortable, then why force themselves into boxes which could then lead to discomfort due to the horrific backlash being trans so often brings? Why encourage GNC folks to abandon the easier life of a cis person to pick out an obscure identity which has less guarantee of acceptance than being GNC does? I'm sorry if that sounds like the common "if trans people can't accept themselves for who they are then why should we accept them for who they say they are" - that's not my intention at all. Maybe this is hypocritical of me, since I was pretty much always accepted as a non-conformist, 'tomboy', but then of course puberty hits and a lot changes internally as well as externally. On the whole I agree with you; internalised transphobia is a huge issue and we can only really hope that those individuals will figure out what makes them comfortable. On an individual level, I will almost always give people the benefit of the doubt and have a civil conversation if there's something I don't quite understand... The point where they really lose me though is when people begin crossing over the concept of gender with objects, non-human animals, or far-fetched abstract concepts. Many such examples exist on this site. I figure these would better fit with 'otherkin' (or in some cases simply experiencing normal human emotion and responses) since they really have nothing to do with the derivatives of gender. Then there are a very small group of individuals, unfortunately, who transition for far more concerning reasons - I wasn't aware of this until very recently, and it's not something I want to risk promoting in a public online forum but if there's any way to message you on here then I can explain that a little more (though I suppose ignorance really is bliss in this case)... But seeing that as well really drove home how important the gatekeeping aspect to transitioning is - at least the medical side anyway. I hate myself for saying that, even though I am at a point of believing it, the process is tough enough and humiliating enough as it is, but I can see now why it is necessary and actually protects the trans community. Course it's not perfect, but it needs to be in place. I also agree that support and acceptance is important, and yes, pressures to conform are problematic. And I'm sorry if it feels like I'm twisting your words at all, but this is where I come back to differentiating between being trans and gender non-conforming... because with the theory that you don't need any dysphoria to be trans, it seems to me that a hell of a lot of GNC folks are hopping onto the 'trans bandwagon' and conforming to a new label because they haven't coped with any pressure to conform to things relating to their assigned sex.I guess the trouble is that it really does go both ways and as a result makes it extremely difficult for anybody to know exactly where they belong in all of this. That said, I've no doubt that there are many trans people who have been put in a position where they aren't able to be themselves for their own safety, and that really is awful. My issue is absolutely not with these peopole, it is with those who seem to sort of turn the trans community into a pantomime, who are very vocal about these abstract identities and about being trans - people who consistently introduce themselves as their gender identity when, on the whole, all other people really need to know are your name and pronouns. But people who are also putting out messages about being transgender which are not reflective of what gendre identity and trans identities are or where they come from. I've had quite a few discussions with people online about whether dysphoria is necessary to be trans, on the whole people have said yes, those who have said no have backed up their beliefs with saying the APA says you don't need it... But the APA also says that crossdressers and drag queens are transgender (people don't tend to take that fact very well at all - I don't believe being a cross dresser or drag queen ''makes ''you trans, but the APA does, hence my hesitation to take anything they say about trans people as gospel). I guess I wonder where other people stand with this - would you say cross dressers and drag queens are trans?